Public sentiment is mixed, with a notable portion expressing skepticism about Pakistan's military advancements, particularly in comparison to India's capabilities. While some commenters show national pride and support for the Rocket Force as a deterrent, there is a strong call for peace and diplomacy over military escalation. Many comments highlight humor and criticism, reflecting concerns about the effectiveness and seriousness of these developments.

Pakistan Military

Indian Military

So they’re modeling it after the PLA rocket force.

titivator

shriand

The PFX seems to be the name for the block 4 upgrade for the J17. It would make sense for the Chinese to assist with the program as they have done with the J17 block 3 and its previous upgrades with the WS13 engines. What do you think would be the differential maker here besides the AESA radar? It is hard to imagine the RCS can be significantly lower enough on the same body for the fighter to be considered a generation above the current J17 block 3.

Single-Braincelled

The J-35 can only carry the PL-17 externally. Not exactly how you would utilize a stealth jet.  I'm not sure if the J-10 or JF-17s can be modified to carry PL-17s as well.

InsaneHReborn

How the hell does India have such a small gap when it comes to operational squadrons against Pakistan?!?!

Do they compensate with large squadrons? Or is Pakistan is just becoming the Prussia of the Subcontinent….

PanzerKomadant

I’m Arslan, one of the Co-Hosts over at Quwa’s defence uncut podcast, there’s a few things wrong with your post I thought it’s worth correcting.

There’s not at all any indication of a current follow up j-10 order at all. The induction of J-35 is also shaky at best, we’ve never seen a proper commitment, rather shaky indications, if you can call them that. Everything officially said about the j-35’s induction has been more pointing towards groundwork and infrastructure, which still isn’t ready to support such a buy. IMO, when you see a L-15 induction is when you could be reasonably confident of a J-35 buy, I believe both will be tied together because the current PAF training setup is not sufficient to support the transition to a NGFA ‘efficiently’. We also know the PAF has a pressing desire for LIFTs. But beyond that, the PAF is investing heavily in its SAM network to fill the gaps with pending deliveries, so funds are not free enough for these other ventures at the minute. There isn’t a pressing need for a FGFA at the moment anyway.

PAC has a production capacity of 22-24 JF-17s per year yes, is it producing at that level, no, perhaps not even half.

The PAF is not interested in JF-17s at the moment. There are more pressing matters, they are drip feeding PAC orders to keep the line warm, there is no current plan to push that upward. The Azerbaijan order and one other potential order in the works* will keep the line afloat while the PAF directs its funds to more critical items of need. JF-17s rank pretty low on this list in terms of priority.

These reports of PAC working on and producing bits for KAAN are misinterpretations and also again, shaky at best. One of our co hosts worked on the project at a pretty high level as a part of TAI Pakistan, and it’s safe to say the Pakistani ‘contribution’ is shambolic. Now TA Pak is effectively a collection of Pakistani educated and trained engineers which are actually not the issue and a great boost to the program, rather, it’s the Pakistani institutions that are the issue. There’s horror stories. It’s best pac paf etc all stay clear to prevent ruining kaan for them lol.

PFX is nothing but an attempt to bring home the JF17 production line as China loses interest in it. The facilities could be put to better use, the JF-17 project is faltering as it nears end of its commercial life. Not this stealthy 4.5 blah blah quantum leap you talk of lol.

KJ-500 was an offer, I don’t think there’s any room for it, the PAF operates a huge aew fleet already and will likely seek globaleye down the road as it standardises on the global platform for its electronic support/attack needs.

If anyone’s interested in Quwa/the Podcast, it’s the most unbiased, no nonsense source for pak defense stuff you’ll find, trusted by laymen and governments alongside major defence contractors alike:

https://quwa.org

https://youtube.com/@quwagroup?si=mogc_tYHd8kXufeJ

Thanks!

arslank01

Maybe more j10ce but probably no more than 36.

Maybe 36 to 40 j31s. 

But I think mirages will be replaced by jf17 block 4 before 2030 as well. 
I think jf17 block 4 might even replace older jf17 block 1 as well.

Bad_boy_18

SAAB awacs have served Pakistan well, why switch now? I thought they have retired their Chinese awacs due to their legacy system not supporting link 17.

Muted_Stranger_1

Do you see them keeping the F16 program alive long term with replacements or will they let this capability die off with the existing air frames while retraining legacy pilots on new systems? Cheers.

No_Apartment3941

what is the effective range of jf-17 block 3 radar? i've seen unverified sources say 200km but it's incredibly unverified. do you have a better figure?

supersaiyannematode

WorkingCorrect1062

I know this is easy to say as an outsider, but it's insane they you guys are wasting money on this when you don't have any genuine existential threats.

(Nice write up though).

sjintje

What I find interesting is that chatter from Pakistanis right now resembles the chatter in online defence discussions of India in the 2000s and early 2010s.

Lets look at the claims:

* Pakistani developed AESA radar
* Pakistani developed Engine
* Pakistani developed RAM

All to be integrated on the JF-17.

A critical difference between the Pakistani online chatter right now and back then for India, India was actually doing something in every area.

* The Hybrid-MMR project lead to the radar that was integrated on the Tejas Mk1, with an Indian designed antenna and hardware, with Israeli RSP.
* The Kaveri had undergone many flight trials, but it wasn't producing the required thrust on afterburner, and had a problem with fan flutter. Regardless, technologies like BLISK, TBCs and materials was being worked on.
* India had developed its own RAM and had put it on fighters since the 1990s, with low effectiveness initially.
* India developed composite materials for its aircraft.
* Flight control systems and the flight control law was something completely new to India, and it was being worked on with General Dynamics on a F-16 in the mid 90s, until the Pokhran nuclear test put an end to that and the scientists and engineers working on the project were forced to come back to India empty handed.

All of this happened in the 90s. Quite a lot of things came out of this effort.

* The Hybrid-MMR was a failure, but it exposed Indian scientists and engineers to enough areas that developing an AESA was something that was within reach. This was helped by India having already produced ground based AESAs since the 2000s and PESAs since the 90s. The Uttam AESA was produced and is successful, having been integrated with the Tejas Mk1A.
* The Kaveri, with all its problems was delinked from the Tejas program in 2010. However the work didn't stop, and it allowed India to make and improve the PTAE-7, HTFE-25, HTSE-1200, STFE Manik and more. The Kaveri itself was improved further into the dry Kaveri, which has undergone testing and will be flying soon on UCAVs.
* India developed RAM and S duct inlets coated with RAM, with attenuation &gt;=10dB.
* Composite materials were used on 90% of the Tejas's skin, reducing RCS and helping strengthen the structure at a low weight penalty.
* Indian scientists and engineers made a 3 axis flight controls fly by wire system by themselves, completely independently.

Developing technologies inherently involves failure, but it paid off in the end for India, with the Tejas going ahead for full production. 12 aircraft will be made this year, 24 the next year, and 30 by 2027-2028. I don't see Pakistan with any sort of program like this, so I feel everything being talked about in regards to PFX is far out of reach, unless Pakistan uses Chinese help at all steps.

PB_05

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Don't show them all your cards! Confuse the enemry and intimidate. If something as basic as Fatah causes panic, what nightmares will the real ones unleash.. In urdu: Jab bandooq se kam chal raha ho to toap chalane ki kya zaroorat ?

FastAd9134

In reality neither side wanted to do any real damage and it was mostly a show of power from both sides to say "look what we can do", 

The main issue which arose was when we took down their jets. That was damage they really did not expect and then everything they were doing after that was just to try to save face. 

This wasn't really a war but more of a skirmish to show who's on top and India badly failed on that on an international stage with their reputation because we still hit their bases with our basic tech and annihilated them in the air, had this gone on longer we would've easily hit them equally hard at their bases too but a ceasefire was called after our very first attack landed.

LEM-Memester

They wanted to tell them that our medium missiles are so capable of the damage. What will happen if we hit you with large ones. Cruise missiles are usually also used in full scale war

heretolearn20

Their airforce was grounded for two days following the first day. It itself is a big feat. For two days they didn’t flew in the name of adjusting their strategy.

Upset_Cheetah_8728

Ballistic missiles like Fatah are a lot harder to intercept than cruise. Pakistans cruise missiles stock is mostly for nuclear use. Using them would have involved a lot of risk. Pakistan is now making cruise missiles for conventional use too but their production is just starting out.

bharikeemat

Understand the difference between limited war and total war. In the initial stages, a conflict unfolds as a series of moves, designed (the planners' hope) to limit escalation while signalling deterrence. So India opens with strikes on non-military targets, hoping Pakistan would at most shoot a plane down (or claim a shootdown) and call it a night. But Pakistan signals that despite shooting down multiple planes, it will deliver a response. It's possible Pakistan might have carried out a much more limited action (like 2019) had India not attacked Nur Khan. India may have hoped signalling the ability to target a military base in Pakistan preemptively would dissuade Pakistan from whatever it was planning as its response. I think that backfired, Pakistan launched a more robust response, even as India targetted more bases. Still, both sides tried to operate within the frame of limited war, raising stakes round by round instead of going all out. Total war represents a complete failure of deterrence (like Ukraine-Russia). It is slow march to death, and any 'victory' (if there is one) is as expensive as defeat. So, neither side unless its completely out of its mind, wants to launch it as its first move, especially when both have nukes. It's declared on our part (and all but declared by India) that any existential threat will trigger a nuclear response. So lets say Pakistan or India wiped out half of each other's air force, you or they might celebrate for a day but be dead the next morning

Zeeesh

Why are we not talking about our air defence capabilities? I think we didn’t perform well here. Getting a hit on Noor khan airbase and other bases was concerning.

ihavenoideai

One reason is that Pak does not have a “no first strike” nuke policy. So if India saw (nuclear capable, even if not nuclear-armed) cruise missiles coming their way, they might panic and assume the worst - ie launch a nuclear second strike.

drt786

Drogo0609

Even though India escalated directly to Brahmos (which could’ve been nuclear too), we kept ourselves restricted to conventional missiles.

Fatah are probably the most basic ones we had and even they were enough to wreck havoc. In an all out war, our prime weapons will definitely be used.

mjolnir2stormbreaker

Well, you save big guns for a bigger day. They used appropriate force as needed.

hybridsme

Same thought.. Thy should hv used missiles equalent to brahmos

[deleted]

A cruise missile is actually easier to intercept than a ballistic missile.

ChuchiTheBest

Memes-24-7

There are two answers to that. we wanted to do a show of force and aur hum ne bara acha kia aur this aur that.
Now for the actual answer
Pakistan does not have any system which can reply to the Indian state conventionally other than Fatah rockets. Fatah system is a rocket artillery system not a ballistic missile. Sending Fatah system was the lowest form of escalation by Pakistani side which obviously did not deter India as in the morning they launched the attack Bolari Air base which killed 5 people before signing a ceasefire agreement.
Brahmos cruise missile which India argues is a conventional system but pakistan always said is dual use however India always said its a conventional system and they used it as a conventional system aur hum shakal dekhte reh gye because even if we can see it on our radar the launch of Brahmos we did not had any system to intercept it. Soft kill ka option hota ha lakin its highly unlikely with the current tech pakistan possess. BTW ye soft kill ka bashan Pookie bhai Aurangzeb ne claim kia tha but its not true. Lakin all being said Brahmos although very accurate are not very good systems because India sent 3-4 towards rafiqui air base and none of them hit wo kahin Balochistan ki taraf nikal gye. Similarly Nur kahn airbase ki taraf bhi 3 Brahmos launch hue the but only one Hit (dosra french made Scalp cruise missile tha which hit).
Pakistan possesses subsonic cruise missiles which was probably reverse engineered Tomahawk cruise missile (which is also a conventional system) but we claimed it is for nuclear payload i.e Strategic weapon. Strategic weapons cannot be launched in fast pace high intensity conflicts because as the name suggests it has strategic effects. 

Another point to note is indians are lying when they said k we launched any ballistic missile because tbh BM is almost impossible to intercept for states like India which have very crap air defense systems like us. Even Iran-Israel was ma 4 din k bad Israel k missile defense system ki accuracy rate was below 65%. 

Pakistan needs to develop fast conventional systems whether it be cruise missile or ballistic missile with a clearly defined conventional realm to overcome this problem k hummain pata hi nahi tha k response kase dain acha. DF-17 kharidne ki khabbar a rahi hain lets see k how true is that but pakistan needs to seriously consider hypersonic glide vehicles in both nuclear and conventional realm to overcome this problem.

aladenMF

Zaroorat hi nahi pari, inse hi kaam hogaya.

Same_Bicycle_2919

I wouldn't trust this site to provide authentic and unbiased information regarding Pakistan. Just have a look at the titles of the recent articles on this website:

1. Rafale Controversy: U.S. Lost 63 Military Aircraft In 1991 But Won The Gulf War; Is West Sidelining India’s BIG WIN Over Pakistan?

2. From JF-17, F-16 To AWACS Shootdown — How Indian “Psy Ops” Is Tormenting Pakistan, Bringing Pak To Its Knees: OPED 

3. Pakistan’s Nukes Busted! Ex-IAF Pilot Decodes How India Struck Kirana Hills, Sending Shockwaves In Pak: OPED

4. J-10C Fighter: Korean Media Concerned By Chinese Fighter Jet’s “Unverified” Success; Gets Anxious About FA-50’s Sale

A clear pattern can be observed. The Indians writing these articles are clearly not the biggest fans of Pakistan.

SuspiciousAd8452

Itni lambi b nahi chorni hoti bhai...
First of all CM 400 AkG is not a Hypersonic missile... Fast? Sure, but hypersonic.... So is the Brahmos....

I'm sure firing a few Cm400s wasn't the "Cause" of ceasefire.... They were already firing brahmos... 

Its something else... We don't know yet... But it's something else.

Humble-Employment-61

how tf USA is still testing while we got the Hypersonic Missile in service? (I mean, did we got those from Chinese tech?)

x5N__

Pakistani air force possesses limited number of hypersonic missiles. Air to surface missiles. 


Surface to surface - pakistan does not have a hypersonic missile unless you include the 50 remaining ballistic missiles of shaheen-iii. 

Pakistans hypersonic speed is not yet a big threat and can be interpreted unlike irans missile program the Fattah-2 travels at a speed of 24,696kph and diverts mid-air.

Affectionate-Win8290

Damn this turned into a fight between Indians and Pakistanis in the comments section.

Psychological-Iron81

Chinese will give this in debt and the way I see it its an investment from china POV to keep india in a 2 front situation.

India always keeps an eye on china when confronting pak and this keeps half the forces bogged down at eastern front. Plus any further confrontation will keep india a land based force over a naval force which is a good news for china.

Is it economical for PAK? NO but its very economical for CHINA

roohnair

Pakistan’s economy indeed is not doing particularly great, but China gives discounts to Pakistan and also gives them very low interest loans that extend over long periods, with generally very flexible terms. China doesn’t do alliances/direct foreign aid like the US, but this is as close as it gets.

veryquick7

"the collapse of the Pak AD network within 3 working days"

You are working from an incorrect premise here.

No_Public_7677

Aiding Pakistan for China is like aiding Ukraine for the West. It's a much cheaper solution to pacify India or at least keep them bogged down militarily. So even if Pak can't pay, CN will probably give them in debt or even for free. At the very least for some of the equipments.

KeikeiBlueMountain

OP not really sure where you are getting the idea that Pakistani AD “collapsed”, since no one outside of Indian Mil Twitter believes that.
Pakistans strategic vulnerability due to its bases and major cities proximity to India isn’t something surprising.
And contrary to what some have been saying, there were plenty of interceptions. 

To have a multi layered AD, you well need space to have layers.

As an aside Air Defence in Pakistan is an Army not an Air Force tasking.

advocatesparten

I think PRC is giving a generous discount to these supplies to build his ally. China does not have strong and dependable ally unlike USA with Japan/SK/NATO besides Pakistan (and NK but that is different) 

  
Money cannot buy genuine allies, so why not spend money on building up existing ally?

LEI_MTG_ART

In practice India doesn't actually dare to hit any real high value targets in Pakistan because Pakistan can easily hit high value targets in India in retaliation. Allowing India to make some holes in runways which are highly visible to satellites is a good way to give India a face saving way to climb down. The alternative is a much bigger war like Iran/Israel right now. 

As long as India is content with making holes in runways and empty hangers, there is no sense in investing too heavily in missile interception. It is far cheaper to deter India from hitting true high value targets with long range strike missiles that hold India's own high value targets at risk.

Serious missile interception assets is not something either India or Pakistan can afford. Israel heavily depends on the US to finance/supply the expensive missile interceptors. It is not in China's interest to subsidize missile interceptors for Pakistan since it is not economic. It is better to let Indian missiles hit Pakistan, and then give Pakistan missiles to hit India back with.

What Pakistan can afford is largely a question of what makes sense for China to subsidize. China isn't going to subsidize defensive missiles for Pakistan the way the US does for Israel. If Pakistan ever gets pushed to the point where they are willing to go all out and wreck India, they will have unlimited supply of offensive missiles.

jz187

The collapse of the Pakistani AD network? What are you talking about? If not having 100% interception rate means a AD network collapse than the Israeli AD network is dogshit. Anyway the first priority for Pakistan will always be it's airforce because no amount of Sams are a replacement for a potent airforce. Pakistani SAM network is barely 4 years old  when there was a high concentration of SAM's like near Karachi and Kamra and time for interception no Indian missles got through.

Pure-Toxicity

China has a glorified army group stationed at its border and contested regions with India, while Indians alllegedly have more than 100 thousand troops there, that cost them significantly more than the Chinese Army group in relative terms. In the same sense: China arming Pakistan is a move that eats away significantly more from the Indian defense budget than it will cost the Chinese, even if these cost would be covered by the defense budget. 

Pakistan will finance Chinese export hardware to add to their existing Chinese based defense infrastructure with Chinese debt, while the Indians have a dysfunctional procurement and implementation policy that has everything from everywhere but China and refuses to talk to each other. 

Economically, India can not free resources to build and modernize its defense, while the Chinese are giving away export products to a de facto ally. 

Economically it would be a win for China.

Tian_Lei_Ind_Ltd

40 J35s cost $100 million each, 4 KJ500s cost $1 billion, a set of HQ-19s cost $300 million, a set of HQ-9Bs cost $150 million

Both-Manufacturer419

this sub is literally run by chinese and M's   


and they will call indians fighting in comment section blahblah blah that 

 only to see 90% of comments are non-indians

Jealous_Mortgage_880

All indian government claims are backed by satellite imagery verified by third party, even chinese sources like Maxar.

throwaway1243769063

All depends how China reads it. China would likely love India and Pakistan to go to war and exhaust each other’s military so it can expand South.  It’s debatable if China would like either of them to lob nuclear weapons at each other. On the one hand it would mean they exhaust nukes they could use against China, on the other hand, once that taboo of launching the first nuclear weapons in conflict since WW2 is broken, everyone else feels much more at ease using them and that makes nations nervous.

With that in mind China might well grant Pakistan some cheap loans to purchase its older jets or air defence systems.

What India must beware is that it imports a good deal of its energy and Has almost as many Muslims living in India as in Pakistan.  Pakistan will likely prioritise blockading or threatening shipping into India to Rob it of coal and oil, together with internal attacks orchestrated through partisans.

KUBrim

the tweet by pak on twitter has since been deleted it just offers,With Pak munir cozying up to uncle sam.China is not mad to keep wasting money on pak with ongoing tariff wars.Pak generals under Usa might end up attacking china with its own weapons during taiwan conflict lol.

The_Stoic_K

you chose the worst possible sub to ask this , this is a ccp sub.

Haunting_Cover2342

In response to India's military actions, Pakistan is forming a new Army Rocket Force Command aimed at enhancing its military capabilities, indicating escalating tensions in the region.

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